From non-profit work to becoming a K-pop icon and GQ Korea's "2016 Man Of The Year"
Eric Nam is one of the most exciting powerhouse talents in entertainment. The Atlanta-born talent is a singer, songwriter, TV host, entrepreneur, and K-pop icon, garnering over 300 million streams. Alongside his two brothers, he also runs one of the top podcasts in the industry.
I was told that Eric is one of 'the most loved male artists' in Korea, and now I understand why. While most K-pop idols seem out of our reach, I really appreciate Eric for his down-to-earth personality and authenticity. In our conversation, we discuss his experience growing up as an Asian American, his international non-profit work, struggles with depression, quitting his job, and getting an email the next day to start his K-pop career.
Eric is an inspiration for me to seize the media space as an Asian American creator. Whether or not you're a K-pop fan, this is an amazing story about finding your calling, chasing after experiences while you're young, knowing when it's ok to quit, building a business with family, and becoming one of the most beloved creators in the world.
This episode was done in collaboration with Subtle Asian Traits, a Facebook group dedicated to Internet discussion surrounding the Asian experience in the West. The Quest team would like to express our gratitude to SAT for helping to source our episode fellow Wooseok, a law student and author of an Amazon Bestseller on K-pop.
📺 Experience The Quest Pod in 4K: https://youtu.be/Ol5nu0yw42s
🍎 iTunes: https://apple.co/3lU3fZs
🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3srzJwq
✍️ The Quest Pod in print: https://thequest.media
🌎 Everything Quest: https://bio.thequest.media
Justin Kan: [00:00:00] What's up guys it's Justin Kan, and you're listening to my podcast, The Quest, where I talk about the ups and downs of trailblazers around me and the human stories and all the stuff that they've had to go through before and after finding success. This is a fourth of our April series to celebrate Asian icons.
You've probably seen what's going on in the news recently. We've had numerous attacks on the elderly Asian community and this is completely not acceptable. We all need to come together to increase awareness on this issue. This month, we're going to be highlighting Asian American leaders on this podcast. If you want to help, you could donate by the link on the show notes.
All right, today, my guest is Eric Nam. Eric is a singer, songwriter, performer and entrepreneur. He's one of the most popular Korean pop artists with over 300 million streams. He also runs the number one Korean podcast company with his two brothers who are also entrepreneurs.
Eric Nam: [00:00:54] But for me, I just felt like such an outsider. I remember, like at one point, one dude literally spit in my face. Um, just as we were walking to the locker room to gym and I was just like, I didn't even know how to react. Um, I was just so jarred by the experience. Um, and there were just like a lot of microaggressions where I think growing up right now, if I'm a teenager right now in 2021, like it's very different from when I was growing up.
Justin Kan: [00:01:34] I got to connected to Eric last month when I was asking for guest recommendations on Twitter and people told me that he was one of the most loved male artists in Korea, when I finally got connected to him, I could see why people said that. Our conversation was awesome. As a K-Pop star, Eric is extremely down to earth and authentic.
And in this episode, he walked me through his experience growing up Asian in Atlanta. Doing nonprofit work abroad, falling into depression, uh, at his first job in India, quitting this job, and then getting an email the next day to star in a K-pop a singing competition. And whether you're a fan or not, this is an amazing story about finding your calling and really claiming that space in the media as an Asian American, I hope you enjoy the episode.
Justin Kan: [00:02:22] Well, thanks for, thanks for being here and joining me on my podcast.
Eric Nam: [00:02:26] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Justin Kan: [00:02:28] This is the first time we've met. So that's, uh, I'm excited to get to know you and, and learn about, more about your story, but I've been, I kind of followed you online and, and, uh, you agreed to come on and I'm stoked fan.
It's nice to connect.
Eric Nam: [00:02:43] Likewise, thanks for having me. Um, I think we probably have some mutual friends and people around, so I'm super excited to get to know you as well.
Justin Kan: [00:02:53] Awesome. Um, well, so the podcast is all about people's origin stories and kind of the struggles, the ups and downs of, uh, going through, you know, that, that they've discovered going through life. And, you know, one of the things that caused me to want to create it was, uh, from the outside people saw like, you know, I've found a Twitch and had this kind of wild success story beyond what I ever imagined, but, um, It took me a long time to realize it myself, but it didn't make me any happier, you know?
And I've been gone through these struggles, uh, kind of like the people thought it was a straight shot to the top and this overnight success that came out of nowhere, but it was like really a tumultuous journey. And so the point of the podcast is really to share people's journeys, you know, especially people who from the outside look like super successful and the, you know, kind of show that no, no path is linear, you know?
So I'd love to do that with you. And maybe we could just start with the beginnings. Uh, you grew up in Atlanta, right?
Eric Nam: [00:03:53] I did. Um, I'm a Southern kid at heart, I guess I was born and raised in Atlanta. Uh, went to school there and, uh, I, yeah, you know, when my parents got there, I think. You know, my dad's always like, there are probably like 200 Koreans in all of that later, um, two or three hundred.. And so it was definitely not diverse. Uh, not as colorful as it is today.
Um, definitely not blue like it is today. Um, but yeah, growing up was, was interesting in Atlanta. I think it's a great place to grow up. I have kind of like an odd relationship with it because I think, you know, my parents being immigrants, you know, we luckily had like an aunt and some cousins who went to Atlanta before us.
And they went through like this private school education thing. Um, and my parents were like, hell bent on making sure that we went through the exact same process that they did. Um, cause it was like the repeated pattern for success. You do this, you get into an Ivy league, you figure it out, you get a job in finance and that's what it was.
And so, um, I ended up going to a private school. All three of us, I have two brothers. We all ended up going to private school. And, uh, it was an experience. I think it taught me a lot of things, but definitely there were a lot of challenges with it because when you go to a private school, a they're hella expensive.
And, um, when you're kids of immigrant family, you just feel so out of place because like just the conversations that are happening and like the, I guess the benchmarks of success or wealth are just so different beyond anything that you've ever encountered. And so there's that. And then I think it was the only Asian kid my year when I entered.
So it was just like a lot of cultural differences growing up. Um, and I think, you know, there were a lot of hard times, but it made me into the person that I am today taught me a lot of things that. I had to learn on how to deal with people from all different types of backgrounds. And that's kind of, I think what propelled me into, you know, my college years and then my career as right now, like a singer song writer, performer, entrepreneur, and, um, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know how granular you want me to get.
Justin Kan: [00:06:14] No, I'd love to get in depth. You know, that, that was, that really reminds me of my own experiences. My mom was an immigrant from Malaysia and I grew up in Seattle. Um, I'm a few years older than you, but, uh, I think you're my, my youngest brother's age. So I have two younger brothers. We all went to private school and it was kind of like in Seattle.
And I went to school with two Asian kids, you know, it was like, um, And some of the things that you said that resonated with me were that it was so weird being, you know, my dad was pretty poor growing up and then my mom was an immigrant. And so I would see people who would like drive a Beamer to school and their kid, dad, you know, their parents worked at Microsoft or something like that.
It'd be like, wow. Like these people are like, I'm like coming from a totally different world. And I think that drove a lot of, for me, it drove a lot of like desire to like become wealthy and be somebody, you know, which was a, um, I guess it served me in some ways in that it, it, it did serve me probably in other ways, like, as I, you know, became more successful and like still had that like unhealthy obsession with like being more successful and more successful.
So I really resonate with that. I'd love to like know, like, what were the, some of the tough parts for you, of, of growing up? Um, or were there any, like, in terms of like, kind of growing up as, as maybe a little bit of an outsider, or like growing up Asian in Atlanta,
Eric Nam: [00:07:34] I mean, I definitely, there were, I mean, I think, you know, I, I, to, I don't want this to feel like a blanket thing, but I feel like everybody goes through, you know, about to bullying or, or that kind of stuff. But for me, I just felt like such an outsider. I, I remember, um, like one point. One dude, literally spit in my face.
Um, just as we were walking to the locker room to gym and I was just like, I, I didn't even know how to react. Um, I was just so jarred by the experience. Um, and there were just like a lot of microaggressions where I think growing up right now, if, if I'm a teenager right now in 2021, like it's very different from when I was growing up too.
It was just like, there are so many microaggressions and things that are passive that you don't realize are racist, but in hindsight you're like, Holy shit. Like, you know, like even just like, I don't know, it was just like so many little things from
Justin Kan: [00:08:34] like, did you bring dog for lunch? Yeah. Or like, where are you from? Where are you from?
Eric Nam: [00:08:39] Yeah. I mean, it's just like the, you know, I don't want to like, yeah. Understate it, but like at the same time it just feels like, so over, like over done, like, I feel like this is such a common experience and like, we've talked about it and like, you know, it's important that we talk about it, but like, it's even like, are you Chinese or Japanese?
I'm like, I'm creative. Like yeah. Swiss cheese. I'm like, okay. I don't even like, you sound like an idiot because you don't know that Korea is a country. Like, why is this funny? Like, it's just so many things where I was, I don't know. I think a lot of it, like, as it is, it goes into survival mode where you're just like, you know what, I'm just going to shut up and like, do what I can, the best I can so that I could get out of here.
And for me, I think that kind of was, you know, in, in, I was never the smartest. I was never like the most athletic. Um, but there were things that I felt like I could Excel at, and that was probably in music. And then just. Trying to be a good person. I think I, I think that was like my biggest thing. Just like trying to be as sociable as possible, even if it wasn't with like students, even with like, I was probably closer to teachers and like some of the students, um, but they were, you know, always looking out for me and it was kind of a way for me to figure out how to like, handle the real world within this weird microcosm of people.
Um, and so once I got to college, I think I was ready to just kind of, you know, explode and just kind of try everything and so many different ways. So, um, I think in many ways as when you're young, like, because we didn't have representation, you only know what you see and what you're told you're able to do.
Like, I remember like my, my high school thesis. Was like about misrepresentation of Asian people in media. Um, this is like what 11th grade or 12th grade. I don't know what drew me to that, but clearly there were issues going on for me to write about that, about why, like, you know, Jackie Chan and Lucy, Lou, and, you know, all these weird exoticized characters from, you know, the history of Hollywood, really.
Why, why should just that inform me as a person? Um, that kind of thing. And so, um, Looking at my high school experience, it was a lot of things where I was just trying to get out survive. Once I got to college, I was like, okay, the world is mine. Let's try it. Let's try this thing all over again. Um, and that's where I think I really had a great time.
I really kind of fell into my stride and, um, wanted to be an active participant in breaking down stereotypes and trying to over succeed, trying to outperform everybody. And maybe in the ways that you have, um, so that people couldn't shit on me or that people couldn't, uh, you know, I can say after you to the naysayers.
Justin Kan: [00:11:24] Yeah, I, that really resonates with me because I was, I felt like an outsider, my whole like youth, you know, when I was, when I was young and it wasn't until I was much later as an adult, like a couple of years ago that I realized that everything I was doing in my life after I, you know, became, uh, you know, after high school and in college.
And then as an entrepreneur, as a, you know, young adult and started Twitch and starting all these other copies, everything I was doing was just to prove, like, to get the approval of outside people like that. I, you know, that, that I've felt like I didn't get when I was a kid. And it was all subconscious, like a Mo mental model that had developed when I was younger.
But then I was like living it out in my adulthood and I, you know, so I really resonate with that. Like, so how, once you got to college, where do you go to school? And like, how did you, um, you know, how did you, how did you find your stride.
Eric Nam: [00:12:20] Yeah. Um, so I went to Boston college, um, and it was, I don't talk about this very much, but, um, so I went to Boston college because I had like a deferred. Acceptance to Cornell. And my parents were like, you have to go to Cornell. Like you need to go to Cornell. It's an Ivy league. You're going to Cornell. I was like, yeah, I don't know.
Like, I should just go to UGA. Like if I'm, if you're dead set on me going to Cornell, I might as well just go to like UGA. It's like so much cheaper. Um, but they're like, no, no, no. Cornell is cold and you need to get used to the cold. You like Southern uncultured child. They were like dead set on me going to somewhere in the North.
So I ended up going to Boston college and it was supposed to be for like a year. And I was like, well, I'm here. We're paying crazy tuition. I might as well make the best of it. And this is going to sound so nerdy. But I applied for this, uh, program called the shell leadership program and they pay 20 freshmen and they pull them into a house.
It's not, it was nine girls and 11 guys in one house, um, on upper campus. And so for me, it was like, cool. I get to, like, if I make it, I get to be part of this. Like. These leadership thing, but I also guarantee a spot on upper campus, which means I don't have to take the bus every day to get to class. And that was my motivating factor.
Um, but I think once I got there, you know, it takes a certain personality I'm sure to apply for a leadership house. Um, but it was just a lot of really, really highly motivated, sharp kids around me. And so I was suddenly found myself in a, I don't think we were competitive with each other, but we all came from a place of like, let's make the most of these four years kind of thing.
And so we really, I think drove each other to be proactive in finding opportunities to get involved on campus in so many different ways. For me, I don't know. I was kind of wild, like the amount of things that I did. I probably tried like every club. Possible from, you know, I was part of student government for most of my years there.
And then from, I tried like a few articles at the newspaper because apparently they pay for your food. I was trying out for the acapella group, which I got rejected from. Cause apparently I wasn't good enough of a singer at the time. Um, I was doing like, uh, I was doing service trips. I found it a service trip to Kenya with my friends.
Um, it was just a little bit of everything and I was waitering at the faculty dining room and then volunteering downtown as part of the course. So it was a lot, I think the one thing that, you know, because I had so much open to me in terms of opportunity, um, I didn't know how to say no. I didn't know how to take a step back about yo chill out, chill out and like actually enjoy things.
But it was just like this, this inner drive of like, I have to achieve everything and have to try everything just so I don't regret anything. I think that's just kinda my personality. And so. I tried it. And then I got like burnt out by sophomore year. Um, and so sophomore year, uh, I was like, you know what, junior year I'm going abroad.
I'm going to go abroad. And then I it's gonna force me to not be involved in like all these clubs and things. And so I ended up going to Beijing for a semester and then I was going to go to Spain for a semester. Um, but I ended up in Beijing and I liked my experience there so much. I ended up staying for a full year and, uh, it's, it was one of the coolest experiences of my life because I feel like the media tells us one thing about China and I wanted to make those decisions on my own.
I wanted to make informed decisions about how I feel about what's going on in terms of, you know, the political landscape and socio economic kind of, you know, conversations that were going on. And so that was definitely a great opportunity. And then I coming back senior year and. I was like, okay, this is my last year.
What can I do to really make an impact? I feel like I've done a lot for myself. I've really done a lot in terms of trying out these really cool courses. Um, being a part of so many different aspects of campus life, I studied abroad. Um, I remember like people call me, like, can you run for class president? I was like, there's no way I would run for like student government president.
That sounds, that sounds like unnecessary stress on so many levels. And so what ended end up doing was, I don't know if you're familiar, but there's this organization called collaboration. Um, and it's, uh, it's, it's like, uh, a platform slash like talent show for Asian, Asian Americans, um, to kind of showcase our talents.
Um, and I think back then it's particularly, it was just like, we like today we have more people in, in media, in TV and music and film just coming up. But 10 years ago, even then it was just such a different conversation. So for me, I was like, this is where. I feel like I could pull my experiences, my connections, and my love for arts and everything, and kind of have it culminate in one really cohesive experience.
And so most of my senior year was kind of dedicated to that and building that out and, um, building
Justin Kan: [00:17:30] You were running it.
Eric Nam: [00:17:32] Yeah. So I was like the founding executive director of this, of the Boston branch. Um, and so that was kinda what I did. And, um, yeah, I dunno. I, I felt like I was hyperactive and I needed to try everything and thank God I did because otherwise I'd probably be regretting it to this day.
Justin Kan: [00:17:54] So that, that collaboration, that kind of sets you on being interested in, in, will you, it sounds like you were already interested in media and Asian specifically Asian-American, you know, Asian Asian-Americans place in the media and collaboration was like a, kind of a step in that direction.
Eric Nam: [00:18:12] Yeah, it was definitely a step in that direction, I think, you know, going back to, like, I know for people who are listening like this dude sounds like he's all over the place. Um, I'm really bad at talking about myself and be part of it is because I am all over the place. Um, so kind of to backtrack a little bit, like while I was so involved with everything on campus, you know, I still felt this pressure to perform academically and, you know, end of the end of the day college, for me, it was like, you got to get a job, you know?
And so outside of all these activities, I was always interning. I, I tried out so many different things in that sense too. You know, I started at investment banking and then I went into, uh, like seed stage venture support internship. And then in China, I was at the economist working for the chief economist and, uh, the monitor group doing like translations at the time.
And then come junior year, my summer, I was at Deloitte doing strategy consulting, um, as an intern. And so. I was supposed to, I accepted the offer. I was going to be a strategy, operations consultant, um, business analyst in New York. And I was like, okay, well, I've set. I've achieved literally everything as like a 21 year old little kid, you know, I've done everything that I'm supposed to do.
What's next. And that's when it hit me. I'm sure. Like, like you're saying, like when you had all that success, you're like, okay, I'm still like, I don't think I'm happy. I think it was, that was that moment for me. Um, you know, I remember my friends or people around was like, dude, you literally have a job. You have like all these things.
You've said all these things up, like you got all these awards, like you're doing great now. Just like live your life. But to me that was like the most terrifying thing that I could think of. Like I was like, is this it. Like, is this all there is to this entire like crazy rat racing that I've like subjected myself to.
And I kept thinking to myself at like age 30 and then I was like, okay. So I'm just going to be 30 married with kids, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But at that moment, it was just, there could be like, that was the least appealing thing. Um, and so, uh, I decided to apply, apply to a couple of fellowships that would take me abroad again, growing up.
Um, the one thing that I think was assistant is just kind of like this heart and this need to be active for other people. And so every summer in high school I would spend a summer in Latin America. Um, and so in Panama, Mexico, and Guatemala, um, doing service, work, learning a language, doing that kind of stuff.
And, um, In college, we did Kenya and Bolivia. And then I was like, I would really like to make nonprofit work my full-time job. And when I told my parents that freshman year, my mom, of course, was like, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You are paying this tuition to not, to like, to not make any money.
Um, and so I think it was something that I had always wanted to do and that the way that my mom, this is, I love my mom, not hating on her, just make money and donate it. That's like the most practical thing. Like, you don't need to go to like whatever country and do whatever. Um, but I was like, okay, I'm gonna talk to Deloitte.
I'm gonna ask for a year off, like a sabbatical kind of thing. Um, and if they give me that I'll sign the contract and I'll go work afterwards. So I got into a program that would take me to India to work on social enterprises. Um, but before I went, I had promised myself like, okay, You have two passions.
It's clearly like, non-profit that kind of stuff, but also music. It's always been this thing. That's always been in the background. I did like YouTube covers of me singing in my dorm room. And
Justin Kan: [00:22:07] Where did that come
Eric Nam: [00:22:07] I have,
Justin Kan: [00:22:09] Were your parents musical?
Eric Nam: [00:22:11] No, they're not. Um, my dad has a good voice, but like my mom, you know, she's just does not care.
And my dad, he just sings around the house. Um, and even when it came to music, it was like, you are going to play the cello and the piano. And if you are going to sing, you will only do opera. And I was like, this is horrible. I'd rather just not sing. Um, But, so I think he was like always just like a passion of mine.
And so the only outlets that I had at that time were just like online blog forums. And then when YouTube happening, I was like, okay, this is really embarrassing, but we'll see what the response is. And I'd be like, Oh my God, a hundred people watched this, Oh my God, a thousand people watched this, Oh, 10,000.
That's huge. Um, and it was like such a fun, like stress relieving way for me to have like a creative outlet outside of work or academics. And I remember it was like, I've made that promise. It's like, when you take this year off, if you get the opportunity to pursue music, you have to take it. And the night before I left to India, I had put up like a, a cover of like a K-pop band.
Um, and then I went to India and while I was there, I was like, I got there. I was quickly very jaded and like. Very, I think I went, fell into a depression for the first time in my life. And I was like, this is not for me, um, for so many different reasons, but it was during that time that I got a call to come to Korea for pretty much like the Korean equivalent of American idol.
And that's where like the music side kind of started to take off.
Justin Kan: [00:23:51] What was the, tell me about being depressed in India. What do you think didn't meet your expectations or triggered it, or like, why, why then?
Eric Nam: [00:24:02] Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, I think I had gone into it with like the best of intentions of like, you know, I, I've always been really excited about startups, you know? Um, and. I love the idea of like the social startup, you know, social enterprise and how do we take business and make it for good in, in the best way as possible.
And that was what had initially attracted me to this gig. And so I got there and it just, wasn't what I had hoped and expected it for me, for me. Um, I should say, you know, I don't want to speak to everybody who's experience. Um, I'm sure for some people it's been an amazing, incredible experience, but for me it just wasn't the right fit.
And so I quickly found myself like just really struggling for the first time, really struggling with what am I supposed to do? How do I deal with this? And like, do I just suck? Like, I think that was like a thing I was like, do I just suck? Like, is it just, is it my fault that I can't deal with this? Um, but it was just tough because like, you know, I got there and I'm thinking like, Oh, we're going to build like really cool businesses and that kind of stuff.
And I'm not, and this in itself is a very important business, but it was like private education, um, for low income families. But I don't know a thing about that. And it was like, when I got there, it was like, okay, please help take attendance and teach English. And I was like, okay, well I can, and I will, I don't know if this is the most conducive way to create change, you know?
And I think that was where it started to kind of like. You know, slowly hit me in, in like a different way. And so for the first time I was like, I would not want to go to sleep because that means I would have to wake up in the morning and waking up in the morning. I would just like lay in bed because I knew that the moment I had rolled out, I'd be like, I have any tired day that I have to get through somehow.
And it was just like, really, I felt, I've never felt that way until that point. And I don't think I've felt that way since then. Um, but having to deal with that was just like, okay, clearly you need to make a change. And so I was, um, I had put in my notice like, think I'm going to go back. I'm gonna start my job early.
Um, they had put together like a special start date back in New York. And it was once, once I had given my notice of like, I think I'm gonna leave, I can help on like, consulting on how to maybe make this into a better program for you guys. And that's what they had asked me to work on. Um, once I expressed that I was like, not happy.
But it was like the next day I got a email from Korea it was like, come to Korea. And I was like, this is the wildest thing. Um, and I thought it was like a scam because it was just my Korean. I could barely speak Korean. I could barely recreate. And it just said like, please send us your passport. I was like, this is definitely like, this is Prince somebody in like, whatever country and what Conda, or like in, in some Luxembourg, like send me your transcripts or whatever.
And, but I was so desperate that I was like, all right, I'll send just enough information so they can book me a flight and they booked me the flight. I will go. Um, and like within a few days I got the flight and I was just like free flight to see my family in Korea, at least. And then I just went,
Justin Kan: [00:27:39] that's such an amazing serendipity. It's, it's kind of beautiful how life works out like that sometimes. And so that was the start. So then you, you competed in the show and can I kind of launch your career? Yeah.
Eric Nam: [00:27:54] Yeah. So I, uh, go ahead.
Justin Kan: [00:27:57] Oh, I was just going to ask, like, what was, what's it like as a Korean American going back or not back, but go into Korea and navigating the music industry there.
Eric Nam: [00:28:08] Um, that's a lot, it was a lot, um, a was really cool because, you know, being a singer, it's like one of those things where you're just like, I'm going to be an astronaut or I'm going to be like, whatever idealistic thing you have as a kid, you know? Um, I think even as a, as a, you know, fifth grader, like what you want to be, it's like, I'm going to be in like, on stage singing, like the coolest songs ever, but going back to, like, we never saw that, like we never saw an Asian or Asian American pop star in the States.
Um, like, I don't think we were ever allowed to dream that the only place I saw it was like on those VHS videos that my parents would rent from the corner store on a Sunday, um, from Korea. And that was like the only place I saw it. So I was like, one day, if I go to Korea, I'm going to try to like, you know, maybe I'll have to get like cast from on the streets.
I'm like, Hey, you look like you could sing and have some random, like, you know, divine intervention moment. And so when I got there, it was like the coolest, like most interesting thing, because you know, on these audition programs, you are surrounded by all these hopefuls. And then you see all these, like celebrity judges, people that you've like listened to and looked up to your entire life.
And I was like, I can't believe I'm seeing this person song in front of him. This is the wildest thing. And so on. Uh, so from like a personal like experiential experience was really, really cool. I think. Navigating culturally was like a really, really difficult part. Um, because Hey, my Korean wasn't great.
And I, I barely understood anything when it came to like anything technical or it was just like, I'm hungry, I'm sleepy. Leave me alone, please. Like, that was very elementary kind of statements, but working and living there is just a completely different thing. So I remember being in trouble all the time for things that I didn't realize I was in trouble for, you know, even just
Justin Kan: [00:30:08] what kind of things
Eric Nam: [00:30:10] like, even like, like in Korean culture, like saying hello, the proper way is such an important thing.
It's about respect. It's about like social hierarchy, but it's not like who's wealthy or what it was just age, you know, age and who's more experienced. So I would just say hi, but it wouldn't be like a complete 90 degree, like bow. And like very clearly articulated, because again, my pronunciation sucks and like this person doesn't know who I am.
Like, why would I have to say hello? But it's just like, you have to say hello and ballot to everybody. I was always in trouble for that. I remember one time we were in like a dance class and all my members or all, everybody there was getting like yelled at. I have no idea why we're in trouble, why anybody's getting yelled at.
So I'm just standing there like this sitting with my arms crossed. Um, and I started getting yelled at because I had my arms crossed. I was like, I don't like, what do you, I don't know, like how to stand. Like apparently I can't stand comfortably. Um, so then I put my hands behind my back and they're like, that's even more disrespectful.
I was like, I don't know what you want me to do. Like, everything that I'm doing is wrong. Um, so even small things to that. And then like, I think from a cultural level, like, Oh, also that, like, when somebody's speaking to you in the States, if you're being spoken to you, look at them in the eyes, right? Like it's a conversation, but in Korea, You look at the ground.
I also did not know that. So I'm like every time I'm in trouble, I'm getting in trouble for being in trouble and then also trouble for not being in trouble properly. It was like the most convoluted, confusing thing. And that's just like one example, but it's, I think even just the nuances of expressing ourselves as Americans, like I think on a TV perspective, they wanted me to be like, Oh my God, I need this so bad without this show, my life falls apart and I'm going to start crying.
And so they were like always trying to like, get me to cry or like do something. I was like, I just don't like, I have a job guys. Like, this is a hobby for me. And I remember being sat down and yelled at because they're like, you don't want this, like anybody else and everybody else, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you were just so rude and disrespectful.
I was like, how? Like I literally, I, I don't, I can't speak the language. How am I this respectful? I can't even say anything. Um, And that was just the start of it. And I think just, you know, I I've been in Korea for about 10 years now and just navigating all the small nuances that come with living and working in a different culture has always been difficult and I've picked it up a lot.
And I, you know, my Korean has become pretty much fluent and, uh, I can do pretty much everything on my own, but even to this day, I think because of those experiences, I find myself second guessing and questioning everything that I do. It's like a, like a survival instinct where like, am I going to get yelled at?
I'm definitely going to be in trouble for this. I'm always like looking behind my back. Um, so it definitely, you know, I still deal with that to this day, but you know, it is what it is. Okay.
Justin Kan: [00:33:19] Yeah, that's a, that's a hilarious story, but I'm sure it was horrible to live at the time. Um, how so tell me, like, how did your career take off from that? Like you're in there competing in this show. You didn't really care that much. I mean, you had the job that you were going to go back to, like what happened for you that, that made it a permanent thing.
Eric Nam: [00:33:25] Yeah. Um, so I kind of told myself, like, you know, let's try two to three years, see what happens. Um, so I got a record deal. Um,
Justin Kan: [00:33:25] Did you win the show?
Eric Nam: [00:33:25] I did not, I got to top five, um, did not win the show. And then I met with a ton of labels and pretty much I signed with one had like a shorter contract. Cause I was like, if it works, it works.
And like I'll resign if it doesn't like I should just leave. There's no point. Um, and I ended up doing music, but TV is what really kind of kicked off my career outside of like the audition program. Um, I started to do a lot of emceeing and hosting and guesting on TV shows. Friday shows, reality shows. And the one that really kind of kicked off as I was doing, like the equivalent of E news.
Um, I was like mini Mario Lopez in Korea, uh, interviewing celebrities. Um, so I originally I went in just to do like the international conversation. So like my first interview I think was like Robert Downey Jr. Um, and then it was, you know, Matt Damon and Benedict Cumberbatch and Emma Stone and, uh, Jamie Fox.
And it just kept getting bigger and bigger. And so, um, what I realized is like people really enjoyed watching me connect with people, um, in a way that wasn't like a superficial, like tell me about the movie and do you know, kimchi and do you like hung on style and Google GTIB, whatever Korean word they could throw at.
Um, and so having. More informed discussions and conversations with these big stars and wildlife teasing bits of Korean culture. And I think is what really brought me to this, another level of the creating general public, like knowing who I was getting really excited about the stuff I was doing. And that just kind of skyrocketed me into to just like bigger shows, bigger music, all that kind of stuff.
Um, and yeah, that's kind of how it all kind of took off and it's been quite a ride. I feel like I've literally done the weirdest stuff on TV. You can think about, um, from being fake, married, to drinking, like, like survival programs, like eating field rats and surviving in like freezing Mongolian mountains, like the weirdest stuff, but it's been quite a ride and it's been fun the entire time.
Justin Kan: [00:33:25] that's amazing. So, in a way, I was going to ask you, like, if there was anything about being an American that had helped you in your career, it sounds like actually being able to kind of be this bridge to celebrities and guests were coming to Korea and, and, um, you know, the Korean audience was like one thing that really helped propel you
Eric Nam: [00:33:45] Yeah, I think, you know, there were definitely difficulties in being like American and, and coming from such a different culture. But I think at a certain point it kind of played to my strengths, um, allowing me to kind of play that bridge role. Um, but also like, I think I started to play up the fact that I like didn't know what was going on.
And it came off in a way that was more endearing than annoying. And, um, thankfully, and, um, that was kind of the way I got into the conversations for a lot of different things. And I think that's something that, um, that bridging that gap has been. Very critical to my career, even to this day. I think the things that I'm working on right now, the things that I'm building, the projects that I'm a part of, they're all kind of based in this thing of, you know, how do we continue to bridge the gap, um, between cultures and, and provide more representation and visibility.
Um, so yeah.
Justin Kan: [00:34:43] What are, what are those things? Can you tell me about some of those projects?
Eric Nam: [00:34:46] Oh man. Um, yeah, so I work on a lot of different things. Um, I guess the biggest one right now is I have a company with my brothers that we co founded about a year and a half ago. Um, and it's called dive studios and pretty much it started at my kitchen counter in Korea. You know, we were looking at. Like the best ways for artists to connect with fans.
And as everybody knows, Facebook, Instagram, all these social media platforms, it's all algorithmically driven. And so even if I put something out into the universe, chances are majority of my fans, aren't going to see it. So how do we engage? Like the biggest super fans. And at that moment, it was like, what are we, what if we try podcasts?
Like people who really love listening to me are going to come to this podcast for updates on me and my life. And nobody in the K-pop space had done a podcast before. So we tried it out, we put it out into the world, we hit number one and number two, and I think like 28 or 29 countries. Um, and we were like, Oh, this is really interesting.
Like, it seemed like somewhat of a minimal effort, um, at the time, but we got it really well. And so what happened is we started to find other friends and like my peers and, um, People who were like, you know what podcasts might be the future guys, like audio is the future. Like let's dig into it. And so we ended up making what started as like kind of a side project into like a full business, a podcast network.
Um, so we have right now we have studios in LA and in Seoul we have, I think like 14 shows under our belt, maybe six or seven that are actively going. Um, the majority of them are in English hosted by a bunch of different K-pop stars and legends in their own. Right. And, um, that's what we've been working on for the most part.
And then as we've been trying to figure out how do you run a startup and where we have all these investors and backers and figuring all that kind of startup stuff out, it's also figuring out how do we scale this into like a real business that isn't reliant simply on podcast advertising, because as I'm sure you may know.
It's not the most reliable source of income. So what ended up happening, and please feel free to cut me off whenever, because I do talk quite a bit. Um, so what ended up happening is we realize that like podcasting in Korea had very negative connotation because when podcasts first entered the market, it was all politically driven.
And it was very, just like, uh, it was very polarizing in many ways. So I didn't know this until much later, but there were just a lot of things had happened, I guess, in the podcast space that had turned people off from podcasts. So right now it's a much older listenership. Um, and I don't think the shows and the, the charts were like as dynamic as we see everywhere else in the world.
And so when we approach like different K-pop artists or companies to join, we had a really hard time convincing them to, to consider doing audio podcasts because, um, For the amount of time and the resources that are put into it, like the returns on investment can be very, very minimal. Um, and so we're like, this doesn't seem to make sense right now maybe because we're too early to the market and monetization, even in the States, we're figuring it out.
But in Asia it's like even further behind. Um, so what we've been doing is we've been really tracking, like what are things that our audience, our fans, fans of dive, but also fans of our artists really like that they find the most value from where do they derive the most impact and value. And we realize it's around conversations that our celebrity hosts have that are very intimate, that are deep, and they are centered around things that they generally wouldn't talk about anywhere else.
And so that ended up in us creating a new audio platform, um, and it's called mindset and we just launched it like three weeks ago. Um, but it's. Pretty much a collection of audio stories that are kind of autobiographically driven. And we, we take moments from my life and all these other lives. And we tell them in this beautifully crafted way, just really giving fans what they really want to know about their favorite artists and allowing artists to be incredibly vulnerable about their stories, because we're making sure that the stories are told in the right way, in a very safe way.
Um, and so that's kind of like what has consumed my life, I'd say for the past year, um, outside of being a musician, um, and what we realized is like the traction's been great. The feedback's been great. You know, people love the podcast. That's a more casual way to listen and to do it while you're driving or showering or whatever.
And then mindset is much more of a deep impact, um, mental health wellness kind of thing that. Is filming a white space in the audio market. So that's kind of what we're doing at the moment. And that's been my full-time job for, for, I don't know how long. And I'm onto the side. When I get a moment I'm working on an album.
So that's what's going on right now.
Justin Kan: [00:40:05] so same as, same as back when you were in college, doing many different things.
Eric Nam: [00:40:10] Yeah, it's weird. I don't know how you feel like, are you the same way? Do you have to have like a billion things going on?
Justin Kan: [00:40:16] Yeah. Yeah. I have like so many things going on right now. I raised, uh, a $50 million fund to invest in startups and I've been investing and we always have, you know, Probably four or five deals going on that we're thinking about doing. And then I started this podcast, like, cause I love connecting with people.
And like back when I was a kid, I know where felt like a new, how to connect with people. And so then as an adult, I kind of learned how, and I felt, felt like this podcast was just a great way to have a conversation, to get to know someone, you know, and it's, and so I do this podcast and then I do, I've started making a YouTube video and I'm probably back where you were when you were in high school where I'm like 10,000 views.
That's like amazing. You know, one of my videos, I dropped heads like 200,000 views and my mind was just completely blown. You know, it was like, this is amazing. Yeah. So I'm just having fun with it, you know, telling, telling stories and, and uh, but I got a lot and then meaning some companies too, like, um, some different companies.
So I always like have a lot going on, really interested in the, uh, the wellness space and vulnerability. Um, Because it's been something that has really helped me connect with people and just feel like I've been seen, you know, in a way that I, I never did when I was younger. Um, one thing I wanted to ask about your new startup was, uh, working about working with your brothers.
Um, I, I worked with my I've worked with both my brothers in different capacities in the past. One of my brothers was in my first intern at Justin TV,
Eric Nam: [00:41:44] Oh, wow.
Justin Kan: [00:41:45] into Twitch. And then he went on to become the co-founder of this company, cruise that's a self-driving car company. Uh that's it's like huge.
Now they just, you know, there is like almost $10 billion, I think. Um, so yeah, he's, he's gone on to do like these amazing things, but we worked, we worked together on a couple of startups and, uh, and then I worked with my youngest brother on a wellness app. Actually, that's a, it's kind of like a habit formation app and, um, I love working with my brothers.
It's, uh, it's fun because we have, you know, you come from the same background, same values. So it just feels like there's more of a mind-meld often than, you know, kind of another, uh, other contexts where I've worked with other people. And I just want to hear what your experience has been with working with your brothers.
Eric Nam: [00:42:34] Yeah. Um, I think it's so funny that you guys are three brothers and we're three brothers as well, and it's it's uh, so you're the oldest.
Justin Kan: [00:42:44] yeah, I'm the oldest and I kind of got them into tech
Eric Nam: [00:42:48] Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think I'm probably similar in, in that, uh, I'm the oldest and I got them into music and entertainment, I guess. Um, so it's been long story short.
It's been really good. Um, but to give you a little backstory. So, you know, I graduated in 2011 and my brothers, both, my brothers are soccer players, so they went to college for soccer and like Eddie he's two years younger than me. Um, he was like, I think I want to be like a sports agent and really want to kind of work in that space.
Um, but then like where's, my career started taking off. I kept seeing opportunity outside of Korea for K-pop, you know, I was getting hit up for a lot of different things, but what we realized is that K-pop companies were not set up for international exposure in any way. Um, And so I would be emailing people pretending, like I was somebody else about myself.
I would be like signing like contracts and like reading, making notes and like making deal points. And, um, I was like, I can't do this like constantly. So I kind of, you know, Eddie, my second brother, he had always been like managing some of my social media and like wanting to help in some way. I was like, okay, I'm going to borrow your name.
Uh, you're going to be my manager. And he also wanted to kind of fill in that space. And it just so happened. He was working at William Morris, um, as an assistant to, uh, one of the music agents there. So he was working on like Sam Smith and Adele and all these things. And he was like, actually I think I wanna manage full time.
So, um, he definitely struggled. We struggled for a while because I definitely wasn't making enough money to like support fully. Um, but as we started to make really cool moments with interesting collaborations, interesting press things, interesting performances, um, we started, he started getting seated in with other.
Acts, um, really, really big acts bigger than me at the time. And, uh, still some of them are huge and he started up his own management company, Ian management. And so that's where he has management, uh, artists and writers and producers. And so it's been great, uh, working with him and then Brian, he's eight years younger than me.
So like, that's it a big difference? I'd say eight years, that's almost 10 years. That's like almost a decade. Um, he was, he went to Columbia and he was on the finance route. So he was going to do private equity and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, okay, cool. Like you can manage my money later down the road.
Uh, we don't need more, more people entertainment. And my mom was like, you guys better not take him into entertainment. Like I will literally kill you guys if he does not have a stable job. Um, but he pretty much. Did all these internships had a great job, like a crazy, super competitive job. And he came out after his internship to Korea, just to hang out for a few weeks.
He was like, I've been sleeping on my office for like three days out of the week. I'm miserable. I'm out of shape and just gonna come hang out in Korea. Cool. The dude never went back. He never went back. So he came to hang out and, you know, it's just interesting. Cause like, I think because of like the different circles in which I kind of work and like have exposure to, I'm always hit up for different opportunities to, to advise or consult or invest or that kind of stuff.
And I was like, you know, do you want to help vet some of these deals or do you want to kind of pursue some of these things? And that's where he just ended up being like, you just might as well make some more content to the podcasting and it just kind of grew and built on its own. Um, I'll say with Eddie.
Like, because we're closer in age. And I think we're very clear when we first tried it. I was like, I'm going to tell you things that you don't want to hear, but that's because I have to play like, quote, unquote, the role of your boss for a little bit. Um, with Brian, we've never like we haven't lived together or work together since he was what, 10.
Justin Kan: [00:46:51] Yeah.
Eric Nam: [00:46:52] there's like a period of 10 years where I didn't labor see this kid. And it's just like, we are so different, um, in terms of personality. And so I think there are definitely moments where we clashed a lot and, um, especially early on, because I was like, Hey, I'm older than you. By 10 years, show me some respect B he's like, you're an old man.
You don't know what you're talking about. Um, there's a lot of things, but I think at the end of the day, and I don't know how, how it was for you, but like when we were getting investment, people are like, what it's going to happen. Like if you guys fight and we are worried about you being brothers. And I was like, I think that's like, like you're saying a strength because.
We know each other's so well, like, and even if we want it to, we can't separate each other. We're family, we're blood. Like it's not possible. So it's almost better that like, we can fight it out. And then the next day we're good. Like let's, I think we have a thing where like, we don't go to bed without us being in a bad mood.
Like even if we like annoyed, we're like, okay, we handled it. Let's move on. And I think I had to make a very clear where it was like anything I say, I'm going to make it very clear for you that there's going to be the business hour. Like, I don't agree with you on a business thing. And there was going to be moments where I don't agree with you, but I'm saying this as your brother, as somebody who loves you.
And that I think has really allowed us to have fruitful conversations about how we work and function as brothers and his co-founders.
Justin Kan: [00:48:20] that's amazing. I love that. Um, and it can be so rewarding to work with your brother. You know, I remember having moments where I like looked around and I'm like, wow, I really helped set them up, you know, in a way. And I, like, I feel like I did something for my family. You know, that was, that that had been really rewarding to be in my, my middle brother is interesting.
We, I think he was always like sick of the kids. He came to Silicon Valley, like maybe. Three or four years after it, maybe five years after I was there. Cause he was, he was like four years younger in school. So like and he got a job with a friend of mine as his first job. And he was always like, Justin's brother, you know?
Cause I, I had this company with Justin TV and the Twitch and like people knew who I was. I was like very extroverted and outgoing and connected and in Silicon Valley. And so people would just be like, Oh, that's Justin's brother. And he was like, so sick of that shit, you know, it's like, it's like, and finally, when he, I remember when they sold their company cruise the self-driving car company in 2016, it was like, I felt like he got, you know, like a weight lifted off and he's like, now it's like, I'm like Daniel's brother.
You know, dad's like the man, he was like in all these articles and stuff is like, you know, this guy, kid who built a self-driving car company. And um, I was like, so happy for him just to that. He was like, no longer had to be like Justin's brother or whatever. Who's, you know, doing this thing. My youngest
Eric Nam: [00:49:43] on that. Yeah.
Justin Kan: [00:49:45] Yeah, my, my youngest brother just doesn't he was like, kinda like, doesn't give a shit about like, being, he never was like, I need to be famous or make a lot of money, you know, make a ton of money. He was not obsessed with that stuff in like a kind of the unhealthy way that I was. So I think he's always been like way more grounded, uh, which is good for him.
Good to see.
Eric Nam: [00:50:06] How, how old is, uh, what's the age of, between you and your youngest brother?
Justin Kan: [00:50:10] Yeah. It's a five years. So it was two, yeah. Two years between Dan and I and then five years. Oh, sorry. Three years between Dan and I and five years between Damien and I.
Eric Nam: [00:50:20] Okay. All right. That's that's cool though. That's really cool. Yeah, no, I, I think it's really cool. And, um, we had this moment last year, right? When COVID hit and everything went into not locked out. So I had to like cancel the rest of my tour. Um, and we were like, you know what, we should just go to Palm Springs and like put our heads down and work and, and continue building.
And that was like, we look back at it and we laugh about it to this day, because we were like losing our minds. We're like living together, um, for like, I think it was like a month and all we would do every single day from the moment we wake up to the moment we go to sleep, it's just like, are we going to survive this?
Like podcasts have no ads nothing's happening. The future is unclear. What's happened like. Pulling our hair out and like getting into stupid arguments. And it's, it's one of those things where like my sister-in-law, uh, she was just like, you guys will never have another moment like that, but also think about like how cool it is that you guys were able to go through that together.
And I think that's something that, um, it's difficult, but it's also incredibly rewarding and really cool to have gone through.
Justin Kan: [00:51:34] That's awesome. I love that. Um, cool. That's that's uh, pretty much what I have to ask. Oh, one thing I want to do is we usually ask my production team if they have any final thoughts, questions. Um, do we have like one member of my, we suck? Are you there anything I, uh, any final follow up questions to ask?
Wooseok: [00:52:02] Yeah, definitely. And first of all, great to meet you, Eric virtually, at least I'm just in the falling. Yeah. So it's been following your career. I think from the beginning, uh, I was in high school actually in Korea, Washington competition show and cheering you on. So, uh, definitely awesome back in the day. Uh, definitely awesome.
Inspiring to see you, you know, become not only a star, but also a leader, you know, for the Korean and Asian-American communities, you know, Um, some of my question, I think, and to maybe close out, I wanted to bring back so keyboards and what's actually trending in Korea. You probably remember it's called about one household when they're iKnowMed.
So basically what that means is every household needs and their thumb, we just don't have enough air iKnowMed in this country per household. And I think that just was kind of like a Testament to your genuine, like role model, personality and talent, you know, that really captured everyone's heart. Right.
Two. So to has been to kind of dive studios and mindset in a world today where it's so mediated by social media and technology. What does authenticity mean to you? Like as an international artist and public figure? So it's like how important is like being yourself today?
Eric Nam: [00:53:09] Yeah. Um, well, first off, thank you for the question. And, um, yeah, I haven't heard that word in a while, but it just brings back a lot of memories. Yeah. It's like for more context, like there's, apparently it's like actually in the dictionary, it's like a phrase that is in the Korean, like dictionary. It's like one household, one Eric knob.
And I remember when I heard it, I was like, that has to be the worst thing to happen to anybody. Um, but they're like, no, no, no, no. It's a compliment. I'm like, Oh, okay. All right. That's cool. I'll take it. Um, but I think this, I bring this up because I think a big part of is like, I was always uncomfortable on TV and being a public figure, particularly in Korea, because I was always concerned about saying the wrong thing or.
Not behaving the right way. Um, I think, you know, kind of the early things that I had alluded to with the audition and all that kind of stuff, kind of conditioned me to be super cautious. Um, and I didn't want anything to be kind of misconstrued. And so for me, the best way that I could think about it, it's like, just be as real as you possibly can when you are in front of the camera.
Like, I, you know, some people they play roles or characters, even if they're like on radio or whatever, cause that's just their persona. But for me, I, I play it to a point where I feel like now it's like boring to people, which is fine because like, to me, that's just like a sign that like, people feel comfortable with me and they're okay with me just doing my thing.
And that ties back into your question about authenticity. I think appreciate, and they value real genuine, like authenticity. And you can only do that when you feel really comfortable about. Where you are and who you are as a person. Um, but I think when you look at music artists today, even in, you know, in the States like Billy Eileen sure.
Or like, wow, over these people who have these songs about their feelings, like the reason it resonates so well with, you know, particularly gen Z and millennials, is that it's very honest, it's brutally open. Um, on the flip side, I'll say that like, you know, a lot of people, like I have things where like, as a public figure, I don't want to talk about certain things cause I'm not processed with it yet.
I'm still processing that moment. Um, but that's where I think going back to nine set, it plays such an important role when you've processed and when you have these things kind of all set in place and I'm ready to tell my story the way I want it to be told, I can do that through mindset. And that's kind of, you know, a big part of where a lot of the inspiration for this platform came on because, you know, I can have an interview with Vogue or I can have a live stream or a podcast or Instagram or Twitter, but like.
There's something to be said about being intentional with your words and how you present your life story so that it impacts people in the best way possible. Um, so I think I look at the future and the way that social media goes and all that stuff, like authenticity will only become even more important.
It's just, how do we do it? How do we channel it and package it in a way that is meaningful so that it provides the maximum good and not like the dark side of, of the things, you know? So I don't know. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's kind of what I'm feeling on authenticity.
Justin Kan: [00:48:56] I love this conversation, Eric. Thank you so much for, for joining us.
Eric Nam: [00:47:01] Yeah, likewise. I mean, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure connecting with you and hopefully we can stay in touch and, Wooseok, thank you so much for the question. It's great seeing you as well.
Justin Kan: [00:47:13] All right. That was my conversation with Eric. Here's some key takeaways from the episode. Number one. Chase those experiences when you're young. You don't have to know what you want to do when you're 20, however, it's always great to be trying new things so that, you know what you don't want to do, hopefully as early in a career as possible. Eric did a million things before he got into entertainment that gave him a ton of experiences to draw from. And he was so bold to go all in when he found his calling. Remember to say yes to new experiences when you're young, I promise you won't regret it.
Number two, know when to quit. Your body and mind, give off indicators when things aren't working right. If you're getting burned out or depressed working on something, then it may be time to do something else. And that's not as scary as you think you, need to be able to
If Eric hadn't quit his role in India, he probably wouldn't have responded to the email of recruiting him to go on Korean TV. And if he didn't get on that flight, well, then we wouldn't have the Eric Nam that we have today. Number three, owning a business with your family member. Which isn't always a bad idea.
People often say don't mix business with family. Well, you can, you just have to do it very carefully. Both Eric and I run businesses with our two brothers, but it's important to establish boundaries and communicate feedback in context. Make sure you're setting expectations from the get go so no one gets hurt accidentally.
But trust me, you can make it work. And when you do, it's going to be very, very rewarding. If you liked this episode, drop us a rating on Apple podcasts and comment what you've learned. Also shout out to Wooseok, Quest Fellow from my discord server that helped with this episode, you can apply to be a fellow and check out all things Quest at listen.justin.quest.
Thanks a ton. And I will see you next episode.